Mathy Math Stuff (or why combat is broken)

  • 500 Armor makes you invincible.

    10 Armor = 2% damage reduction.

    Resistances are a flat reduction of damage applied before Armor.

    There are no diminishing returns.

    Let's do a little math.

    Trup the Example Champion has:
    470 Armor = 94% Damage Reduction
    12,000 Health
    0% In all Resistances

    He decides to enter Insane Mirefen Burrows and is merrily making is way through the dungeon when suddenly a Rogue Amarian pops out of stealth and kills him at full health with Mortal Strike.

    In order to die at 12,000 health with 94% damage reduction, Mortal Strike is dealing 200,000 damage.

    200,000 Damage - 94% Reduction = 12,000 Incoming Damage = Dead

    Mbenu the Silly Cleric has:
    400 Armor = 80% Damage Reduction
    12,000 Health
    50% Slashing Resistance

    Mbenu decides to enter Mirefen Burrows with Trup and leads the charge when the same Rogue pops out and uses Mortal Strike.

    200,000 Damage - 50% Slashing = 100,000 Damage - 80% Reduction = 20,000 Damage = Dead

    Whoops! Watch out Mbenu, that Slashing Resistance isn't going to help much!

    Mbenu decides to trade 50% Slashing Resistance for 50 more Armor for a total of 450 Armor = 90% Reduction.

    200,000 Damage - 90% = 20,000 Damage = Dead.

    Damn, that sucks Mbenu.

    So what happens if we just reduce incoming damage?

    The Amarian Rogue's Mortal Strike now deals 10,000 Damage instead.

    Epona the Wizard has 200 Armor = 40% Reduction = 6000 Damage Taken
    Peimei the Ranger has 300 Armor = 60% Reduction = 4000 Damage Taken
    Mbenu the Cleric has 350 Armor = 70% Reduction = 3000 Damage Taken
    Squid the Rogue has 400 Armor = 80% Reduction = 2000 Damage Taken
    Trup the Champion has 450 Armor = 90% Reduction = 1000 Damage Taken

    With 12,000 Health Pools, that begins to look more reasonable, and provides plenty of room for adjustments, right? With this we can alter class abilities, make tanking and healing relevant, and generally fine tune the combat numbers to properly configure the different difficulties.

    However, this doesn't solve the entire problem. By keeping the 500 Armor cap = 100% damage reduction, you reduce the ability to create increasingly better gear for players in regards to damage reduction. The developers can't just keep adding slightly more armor to each new batch of items because it has a large impact on incoming damage.

    They could add new defensive stats such as dodging or parrying. They could add resistances instead of armor too. But these are just short term band-aid types of changes that don't really address the underlying issue.

    And that issue is that 100% damage reduction should never be possible through stats.

    There must be diminishing returns on Armor. There must be supplemental defensive stats such as dodges, parries, and resistances. There must be class abilities for all classes that deal specifically with damage reduction or avoidance.

  • Hi Trup,

    Thanks for the analysis. While we do want mortal strike to nearly kill you if you are that geared it shouldn't be that lethal. There are some NPC's that will kill you regardless of whether its mortal strike (red spiders in spider crypt) but I'm reviewing currently with the programming team. We will update you on the status within the next week. I am out the end of the week so the update would be next week most likely.


  • At 500 Armor nothing in the game can kill me besides environment bugs. I can pet 10 tiny little red spiders while standing in Lava with 35 guys on me, but I can't use Mortal Strike on Spider Queen while she is descending or I instantly die. You have been killed by environment. Yesterday I was screwing around in Lava seeing how crappy Wall Run is and was freely running through Lava taking 0 damage testing all of the places where Wall Run doesn't even activate, let alone where it doesn't work as designed.

    Also, there should never be an ability that just outright kills you that isn't avoidable.

  • Wait a second... people still post here?

    Appreciate the math. I was convinced there was some bug with a piece that made Mbenu invincible. Understand the 500 AC, although getting to that is not easy. I think the ancient ring at 27 AC makes it possible. Agree 100% should never be possible. Diminishing returns makes sense.

    And, increasing returns is need for group loot. At this point, if I can solo insane and sneak as a rogue and just kill all the bosses, why would I bring a group just to have to split the loot however many ways... and quite possibly not get any loot?

    It goes back to the discussion we've had before about whether this is a solo game that is playable in co-op or a co-op game that is soloable. There just isn't enough variation in play to make it soloable for very long: IMO.

    If I'm solo-ing I'd max AC for survivability. For group, I'd keep the BS and deal more Holy Damage with my cleric. But if this is gear grind game, once I get to solo it gets harder and harder to do a group with random people who aren't sharing and comparing loot and making sure that the person that needs it gets it.

  • Yeah, that's why games typically have other defensive stats like dodging and parrying. It increases EH over time through upgrades while maintaining known armor to damage reduction values. Classes also end up with various forms of self-healing and defensive abilities.

    The game is also lacking a proper drop system like what you're talking about, but it also needs to emphasis and reward grouping. Right now the loot is the same on every difficulty, just the probability of guaranteed quality increases, which isn't enough.

  • i woke up for this? :zzz: still too early :expressionless:

  • Lol,

    I'm back from being out so I apologize for the delay, we've been doing more and more math lately and working out some kinks. I think what you say makes sense mBenu , loot options, and content that is solo and non soloable are needed. Working on several of the class changes currently. WIll have an update on that soon.


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