Design Team - Player Priorities



  • Hi,

    Please post on this thread what you would like to see and in what priority. I ll take your responses and compile them. We will use this to avoid the noise as to what you are interested in. Thanks for your support.

    John



    1. Itemization Changes/Crafting Changes
      Arguably the largest change to come to the game, having these in sooner rather than later not only allows for players to identify possible areas and encourage faster balancing, but is a largely underlying feature of the game that when implemented, has a drastic change on the game's environment. New environments, new enemies, world content, and just about everything else added to the game will in some way (directly or indirectly) be affected by the itemization changes.

    2. World Content
      The world is there, but there's nothing to do. At this point, it's just a huge tease, and with features like the Dragon being mentioned for months...it would be great to have a reason to go explore!

    3. Dungeons
      This includes both new dungeon tilesets and revamps of old ones. Ice Caves aside, I feel like waiting for new environments is completely okay. The Ice Caves REALLY need love, though...even if it's only a single tileset. New tilesets will always be awesome, but I feel it's less important than the other 2 above items.

    4. Classes/Skills
      The reason this is the second-to-last item on the list is strictly because of it's complexity. It is difficult coming up with balanced classes and interested skills for each class, that also keeps them somewhat unique. Adding these in in batches (Which is how I believe the next set of classes will be done) is best, and it will take time to do them right. Don't rush them.

    5. Miscellaneous
      New mounts, further optimizations, quests, new armour or weapon sets, mail systems, fancy new doo-dads and how-whatsits. Nice-to-have's. Do them as they're done, never make them a priority. They're nice filler in patches, but should never really be a focus. Yes, optimizations are hugely important, but the game has come a LONG way since release, and I think it's fair to drop their priority a bit. Fix things where you can, unless it's a huge problem.

    Keep up the great work! I haven't given up yet!



    1. Itemization and Crafting
      This sounds like it's nearly complete already, but you should expect lots of feedback which could require additional changes.

    2. Class Updates
      Class abilities need tuning. Some abilities need to be replaced.

    3. Endgame Class Progression
      I want a long term investment character progression system I can work towards. Some combination of a paragon system with a talent specialization/talent tree would be ideal.

    4. Dungeons
      Roll out the remaining pre-launch dungeons.

    5. Enchanting
      Based upon changes to the elemental effects you've spoken about. It would be nice as a Rogue if I could enchant my axe to proc a heal on myself.

    6. UI Upgrade
      All of the little annoying things should be fixed along with some added functionality.

    7. Weapon Specialization System
      This is from a while back, but I still like the idea of being able to choose and specialize in a certain type of weapon. This could be tied into #2 - Endgame Class Progression.

    8. New Classes
      Would like to see a proper 2H class and a summoner. I know others want a Bard, although I always laugh at the pansy in the back playing the lute.

    9. New Races and Race customization
      Would love skeletons being added. Some of the races have limited visual options. Red orcs anyone?

    10. PvP
      Maps and Rewards. Tie it into the class progression system.

    11. Guilds
      Even just a tag and chat channel would be nice.

    For the record, I couldn't care less about world content. If you do have a Dragon, just have it attack Everdale every 8 hours and have him leave after 20 minutes if he isn't killed. Change him in a future patch once you have the world done (even though I think you should focus on the dungeon experience).



  • Hi Guys,

    Thanks for responding so quickly. I ll put your lists together with what we have for the team Monday morning and get in sync. I ll probably adjust the weekly update, to a "working on" so that you can see the alignment.

    If you are interested and willing. It would be great for you to take some of these ideas forward (specifically ui upgrade details, class updates and end game progression).

    Thanks again for the prompt response.

    John



  • UI Upgrades/Changes

    • Save my Region
    • Incorporate Mike's mods into the game
    • Tooltips on everything (Probably enough work for it's own patch)
    • Change the UI from being the full screen. The only thing I think is okay to be the entire screen is when the bank is open. Right now the UI is broken into three panes.
      • Abilities and the Journal take up the two right most panes. So I would start with eliminating the far left pane. This would at least allow the player to continue to see the world and engage in chat.
      • The middle pane on Inventory would be replaced with the new tooltip information. You would need to move the weapon area to the other inventory tab or somewhere else.
      • We don't need to see our character on the Player and Abilities Frame, only the inventory frame. The player model would slide into the middle pane and the middle would be replaced.
      • The Journal pane buttons would be moved to the bottom of the book pages.
      • The Local Heroes and Friends pane would be merged on the Party frame.
    • Bank - Compare bank items with equipped items
    • Bank - right click functionality to move things from inventory to the bank.
    • Bank - While its open, let me move stuff from page to page.

    Class Updates

    • Ability tuning will need to happen, especially after the itemization changes. The entire bow thing needs to be changed. Things like not knowing if Eviscerate is doing what the tooltip says it does is another example.
    • Ability replacement needs to happen with abilities that are either never used, hardly used, or redundant. Throw Dagger as an example.

    End Game Progression

    • I would start with something like Diablo's paragon system, but make each category have a finite amount of points. You could have an offensive, defensive, weapon specialization, and class specialization or something. Construct it in such a way that later on you could either increase the ranks of skills within the trees or add new skills.
      • The weapon specialization tab could be set up more like a traditional talent tree where the player would be restricted to choosing a specific weapon, but would then be able to dump points into the tree for that weapon. Something similar could be done with the class specialization tab.
      • For example, in the Weapon Tab, a Rogue could choose between Daggers and Swords or Axes and Maces. On the class specialization tab, Rogues could choose a poison path, or a bleed path. Wizards could choose a fire path or an ice path. Something like that.


  • @Trup said in Design Team - Player Priorities:

    1. Enchanting
      Based upon changes to the elemental effects you've spoken about. It would be nice as a Rogue if I could enchant my axe to proc a heal on myself.

    I don't quite agree with that. Elemental resistances would be nice as enchantments, but everything that has the potential to make another class useless or less wanted, like healing procs, should be avoided. There are enough games out there where all classes can do almost the same things. 8 self healing rogues/champions/wizards will not require a healer in their group since the will kill stuff so quickly while healing themselves in the progress. The beauty of this game - so far- is that in order to have a succesfull run you need a ballanced group.

    For the record, I couldn't care less about world content. If you do have a Dragon, just have it attack Everdale every 8 hours and have him leave after 20 minutes if he isn't killed. Change him in a future patch once you have the world done (even though I think you should focus on the dungeon experience).

    I can't agree more here.

    Crafting from bank would be nice

    /Michael



  • @HirnKhan

    This is already happening with potions, so a healing enchant proc would just be something to smooth out gameplay and lessen the potions needed. The same argument could be said for giving Clerics damage enchants though, right? Do we really need to restrict everything to class roles?

    As it is, we'll have to see how sever the itemization nerfs are. Right now, if they nerf defensive stats too much than we'll just go back to constantly getting one shot like before, in which case a Cleric isn't going to help anyway.



  • @Trup No, I don't want clerics to get get damage procs. I just want this game to be different from other games, which it won't be if you remedy class weaknesses through enchants.



  • Then why give Clerics any offensive abilities? Not sure if you played before Alchemy, but it wasn't very fun playing anything but a Cleric because you had no way to heal. I don't think not being able to heal is a class weakness for anyone, but rather than classes don't have good defensive configurations to offset the lack of healing. Before alchemy if you wanted to heal yourself you literally had to just stand in place and wait for you health to automatically regen, and that was the opposite of fun. And I don't understand how Alchemy can be okay, but not enchanting.



  • @Trup The difference is - procs are 'automatic' while potions are 'manual'. You need to keep an eye on your health and quaff a potion at the right time knowing there will be a cooldown before you can quaff the next. Procs just happen



  • I have thousands of healing potions and I can make thousands more. I'm not exactly making decisions here on when to use them. Every class needs a reliable way to heal themselves. All we have right now are potions. If they go and make you have to gather everything rather than buying it then we fall back in to the same place of being unable to heal yourself.

    And there's really no difference between a damage proc and a healing proc. You have to give up one to take the other.



  • In order of priority (in my opinion).

    • The ability to re-enter a dungeon if you were disconnected! Not talking about being dead, but if an error kicks someone out, then they should be able to get back in. This is a huge priority in my opinion, as it is the one thing keeping my friends from wanting to play more at the moment.
    • Itemization/crafting changes. Same reasoning as what others have said here.
    • More development options for classes. Perhaps ways to modify abilities. For example, can choose between having the Wizard's basic attack being a fireball or could instead be an iceball. You can choose freely while in town, but upon leaving town or entering a dungeon, the choice is locked. Right now the classes don't offer exciting unlockables. Instead of minor stat changes (which the tooltips don't even tell us what those stat changes are), make the improvements matter. If we have a choice in there, then that makes it all the more meaningful for us. More than being invested in the world, we need to have a reason to be invested in our characters. We need to feel that they are OUR characters, based on our choices and not just the evil dice lady's at the beginning.
    • Dungeons. We need more variation and more places to dungeon crawl through. The more varied, the better. I would also say that you should start associating the dungeons with world locations. While I think there should be both procedural dungeons and world dungeons, we should still have an idea of where we are. "Caves beneath Lodur Mountain" or "Ruins near Ruinswick".
    • New Classes. While we don't need too many more before release, I really feel that even just two or three would be beneficial. You could even go with hybrids off your current ones. A Champion/Priest would be a Paladin. a Rogue/Ranger would be an Assassin. Champion/Mage is a Battlemage. Rogue/Mage is a Warlock. Priest/Mage is a Necromancer. Etc..
    • World content. While I understand the focus on the core mechanics and the dungeons, the world adds an element of immersion. Don't just make monster spawn points and forgettable quest hub. Add a reason to go there. Add story and life to the places. Even Everdale needs more life. There is a big, interesting town at the center of the world, and yet most of it is empty space.
    • Quests. Certainly a way to give us more to do, but must be thought out in great detail. If not done well, they could be ignored, or even be annoying. If done well, they further immerse us in your world.
    • Housing. Probably a controversial feature, and most certainly something for near release or shortly after. Giving players roots in the world, again, furthers immersion. The more immersed people are, the more they want to come back and play more.


  • With all those potions there really is no need for a healing proc then is there? Why do all classes NEED a way to heal themselves except for potions. Following your logic all classes also NEED an option for more damage/stealth whatever. You already have a reliable means of healing every class - it's called a cleric. Unless you only plan to solo which is not the goal of this game IIRC. he will heal you. The cleric already has means to improve damage against a mob, Rogues and other dps classes. I am sorry if I misunderstand your arguments, but it sounds like you want to allign KaH so all classes can do everything and turn this game into the usual 'party looking for dps with self heal and xxx stats - no tanks and healers required. we kill things too fast - rofllol' kind of game.
    Also the only time I am in real trouble with my mage/cleric/rogue is against archers where a healing proc won't help anyways unless you would like it to trigger when you're hit which would grocely imballance the game?

    /Michael



  • Being able to heal yourself so you can continue playing is not the same as 'giving everyone stealth'. Chugging down potions nonstop is also not a very elegant solution, and once the alchemy npc is removed then self healing will become an issue again. A healing proc would smooth normal gameplay for everyone that wasn't a Cleric or didn't have an endless supply of potions.

    Clerics are unable to keep an entire group alive anyway unless the difficulty is turned way down or everyone is rocking the proper stats. Too many people don't understand how incoming damage works and think a Cleric should just be able to swoop in and save the day. Your archer scenario is a prime example of that misunderstanding.

    Any class can walk into Baertocs room, pull the entire thing and live to kill them all on Insane if you understand the game mechanics. So I don't understand validating the Clerics group healing by not understanding mechanics, but won't validate the fact that no other class can heal outside of potions.

    I don't really care if potions are the solution as long as the vendor stays in game, but it's silly to say nobody should be able to self heal because of whatever reason. If it's a multiplayer game then remove all damage abilities from a Cleric. If it's potions than keep the vendor in game.

    And all of the classes can already do most things. The only thing unavailable to everyone right now is lock picking. Everyone can deal damage, heal, res, and stealth already.



  • @Trup said in Design Team - Player Priorities:

    Being able to heal yourself so you can continue playing is not the same as 'giving everyone stealth'. Chugging down potions nonstop is also not a very elegant solution, and once the alchemy npc is removed then self healing will become an issue again. A healing proc would smooth normal gameplay for everyone that wasn't a Cleric or didn't have an endless supply of potions.

    Clerics are unable to keep an entire group alive anyway unless the difficulty is turned way down or everyone is rocking the proper stats. Too many people don't understand how incoming damage works and think a Cleric should just be able to swoop in and save the day. Your archer scenario is a prime example of that misunderstanding.

    Any class can walk into Baertocs room, pull the entire thing and live to kill them all on Insane if you understand the game mechanics. So I don't understand validating the Clerics group healing by not understanding mechanics, but won't validate the fact that no other class can heal outside of potions.

    So if Clerics had stronger heals, parties would not limit themselves to only one Cleric and partymembers played carefully not pulling too many mobs and not positioning themselves out of the reach of the clerics things would be ok? A party size of 8 suggests that there should be at least two healers for the high difficulties imo.

    I don't really care if potions are the solution as long as the vendor stays in game, but it's silly to say nobody should be able to self heal because of whatever reason. If it's a multiplayer game then remove all damage abilities from a Cleric. If it's potions than keep the vendor in game.

    Please look up the rogue, fighter, wizard, ranger and cleric classes in your players handbook and then tell me that this system that has been used by millions for decades is flawed.

    And all of the classes can already do most things. The only thing unavailable to everyone right now is lock picking. Everyone can deal damage, heal, res, and stealth already.

    Yes, by buying potions and scrolls, which are money sinks to control in game economy. I agree that the potion vendor should not be removed or that Alchemy should be a 'secondary' crafting skill that can be taken alongside the 'primary' ones.

    Lets for now agree that we both want the best for the game just in different ways.

    /Michael



  • Stronger heals wouldn't solve the problem, it would just make Clerics an even better solo class. The real problem is with incoming damage and mitigation stats.

    And this isn't DnD. I don't remember killing dozens of bosses and thousands of normal encounters in an hour long campaign like you do in a dungeon run. So you can't justify one design decision based upon DnD but ignore everything else you think is fine.

    Healing right now is like a final fantasy game. You just hit a town and max out your stock and not worry about it.

    There are two things Clerics and potions have in common. They won't save an undergeared player and they enable you to do higher content when you're well geared. Clerics and potions are completely interchangeable when you're in the best gear. That's why it's a problem with damage and mitigation and not healing. As it is, a healing enchant would just make life easier and really have no impact on difficulty as it currently stands.

    If the itemization patch comes and ends up nerfing all of our gear into the ground without them also changing damage calculations then we'll be back right where we started when the game first release with everyone getting one shot. Clerics weren't brought to heal, they were brought to sit and the back and res people. Baertoc would wipe an entire group in seconds.



    1. Class optimization. There is still some tweaking that needs to be done to make the melee characters playable on equal status with range / clerics.
    2. UI update.
    3. Re-entering the dungeon.
    4. Crafting fixes. At this point, crafting is on perma-hold pending changes.
    5. Boss Mob drops = yellow crafted.
    6. Optimized dungeons.

    Co-develop and add:
    -- Endgame content / 50+ content / New classes / New skill trees / Weapon specialization. As mentioned before, these things need to be co-developed or there will always be something out of whack and needing to be fixed.

    De-prioritize:
    -- PVP.
    -- Overworld. The only reason I expect it is because you built it. Therefore, I expect you to fill it. If it isn't coming soon, just limit the world to Everdale and then add it later.
    -- Horses. Pointless.
    -- Loot crate / trinket.
    -- Enchanting. Until the other things are done.



  • 1 Classes: balance the existing classes while keeping them unique and needed

    1. Equipment: align boss drops and yellow crafted gear on basic stats. Boss drops should have high resistances against the elemental damage type of the dungeon - crafted gear should have slots to tune resistances
    2. Chat: add friend joined and left pop-ups and allow for movable whispers window
    3. Decrease exp gained for players up to 15 levels below highest level party member and remove exp for players 16+ levels below highest level party member
      5 Guilds


  • Wow,

    Crazy ton of responses but really appreciate it. Glad to see many are in alignment. Will update you as soon as we discuss which would be this afternoon and we can post sometime tomorrow probably.

    John



  • @HirnKhan said in Design Team - Player Priorities:

    1 Classes: balance the existing classes while keeping them unique and needed

    Agree. Want them to be unique but to have a purpose in the group. Right now, groups don't need a champion or a rogue and the mobs are often dead by the time the melee classes get to them.



  • I def think abilties and balancing is a must. Like knife throw which i like but doesnt work with most gear. I also dont see wizards needing 2 teleports and melee classes mostly need balancing. As stated above mobs are killed before they even get close and when they do they dont hold up as they should in close combat. Also rogues chest ability the locked chests never have anything. Maybe if they gave perks or xp party boosts along with decent gear people in town will crave a rogue to party with.

    UI should be worked a bit. Def add mikes and zevs amazing mods since almost everyone uses them. Still cant chat while crafting. Also guild chat and friend online notification would be awesome.

    Id then like to see skill trees so i can customize my characters to my playstyle. And if u do this first i will have reason to run more dungeons.

    Enchanting would give more reason to grind and add playtime...

    Next i would like to see dungeon drops more rewarding. I ran caves the other day with mbenu on insane since i never finished a run there and i felt as tho i wasted my time. No decent drops not even a random purple. I dont think i even got a single blue drop. It was all gray and white. I liked the whole pattern idea from lava and enjoyed running them. But once i got them all and my gear i didnt feel much need to run them over and over. Altho still dont have a nice crown.

    Then id like to see outside worked. Im dying to craft new gear and explore but still waiting on wereium. World bosses is exciting as well. And cant wait but some things should be worked first. No point grinding till we know whats coming such as resist debuffs and skilltrees and enchantments. On a side note i love the idea from up top about dragon attacking town. I remember this in a game before maybe ff11 but i remember hiding in shame. It was exciting tho.

    New classes added to give me a reason to do it all again lol and give me brand new feeling to the game as tho im a new player again.

    I love a mail system as well to send gear to friends.

    Maybe fix it so that i dont have to friend my friends character each time he chanfes classes. I have to refriend my friends 5-7 times each time. If thats possible. Like like it with steam name in parenthesys and have character name next to it.

    After all this and down the road id like to see raids where u have to work together and sometimes split up to open doors for ur team. Some class abilities would be useful here. Like 3 switches needing to be stepped on at same time but they are down 3 seperate corridors where u get attacked by mods. But u get the idea. Untill u get to a boss that also has tricks to beat....with a boss cutscene to add suspense.... just a fun exciting dungeon raid idea...


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