Character progression ideas

  • Just some quick ideas wihtout considering how ease or difficult they would be to implement.

    From levels 1 -50 players can choose between base classes: Champion(STR/DEX), Cleric(WIS/INT), Ranger(DEX/INT), Rogue(DEX/STR), Wizard(INT/WIS), Bard(CHA/DEX) While levelling from 1-50 characters will learn their base class's skills and abilities, get to know the basic dungeons, train the crafting skill of their choice to 500 and gather sets of equipment that will allow them to run dungeons at level hard or higher.

    At level 50 players will get access to the advanced skill tree. You start gathering exp to buy skills instead of levels. The skills available will depend on your allignment. A wizard for example would turn into an archmage (any good allignment) or a necromancer (any evil allignment). A cleric could become a palladin (good), a priest (neutral) or a warlock(?) (evil). You you wouldn't really change class - a cleric would always be a cleric, you would just have access to different skills you can buy.
    At 50 you can also earn mastery of a dungeon allowing you to become a patron for other players running that dungeon. As a patron you increase their defences and have an increased chance to find elemental gear. Elemental gear will have increased resistances or damage bonusses of the element the dungeon is based on. When salvaged elemental gear has a chance to drop fragments. The chance and quality of the fragments depends on the quality of the gear and the crafting skill. Fragments can be added to recipes to craft elemental gear. Unlike dropped elemental gear which only has one elemental resistance crafted gear can have up to three slots for fragments to allow for a mix of resistances (10 fire/10 ice/10 necrotic) or a high single elemental resistance (30 fire). The number of slots is random but higher quality equipment has a higher chance to have more slots. The quality of the fragments found decides their elemenatl resistance or damage modifier. Maybe Alchemy could have recipes for extraction potion that increase the chance of higher level fragments or a new tinkering/engineering craft could be added to create extraction and other devices?


  • @HirnKhan

    Love it. Nice build to existing system without dramatically changing it.

  • I'm not sure new skills is the way to go with the limited action bar space we have, and I'm also not sure we should turn this game into having classes with 30 different skills. I think from a development standpoint it's much easier to modify existing skills than it would be to create a bunch more.

    If a Wizard chooses fire, do they have fireball and super fireball? If they choose ice, do they have fireball and iceball? Seems to me that the fire Wizard should modify fireball in some way and the ice Wizard should modify fireball in some way. One ability, different specs modifying a skill in different ways.

  • I don't think I mentioned how many skills there will be, but some obviously will be new, some will replace existing ones like the superfireball you mention and others will simply improve exisiting skills (duration of your stealth or the amount damage you can take before you are revealed). Why keep the fireball skill when you can have a better one instead. Already now I use two tool bars - one for my attack/healing skill the other for buffs, the imp, mount recall stone. Simply tabbing between them really is no problem you just need to prioritize. Your allignment would further limit the skills available to you.
    I was thinking that elemental weapons would ad effects - fire = burning(dot), Ice a slow, necrotic fear so your fireball would still be a fireball it wold just have the possibility to proc and additional effect

  • I understand, I just hate ability bloat. I don't think a class needs to have more than 7-8 skills. A few damaging ones, a few defensive ones, and a few utility ones. I just think it's much harder to create a brand new ability than it is to modify existing ones. The existing skills we have aren't that glamorous either, so I'd rather see them made better than just replaced, but I want the player to make the choice on how they become better.

    As for the elemental procs, it's something they've discussed and plan to do at some point.

  • @Trup

    I agree with no bloat, but I don't think we are anywhere near that. A few more to enable specialization would be appreciated.

    For example, with 8 slots in a team, I would like the ability for 2 clerics with different abilities enabled to enhance the overall effectiveness. Both spamming one spell, smite, over and over is tedious.

  • Right. We've been asking for class updates for a while. Most of the classes are that way though. The Cleric has a lot of different spells, but only two damaging ones. Melee is in bad shape too. Smite is no different than that a standard attack though, which all of us are spamming.

  • Implementation a progression system (post 50), would be implemented after the Christmas break as we have an a lot to do before then. As we finalize the implementation plan we will review this thread to incorporate any ideas that we can. In the mean time please continue with the discussion.


  • Some feedback based on yesterday's webcast.
    From what I understood talents will primarily be used to modify existing stats like attack speed, crit, ...
    I am a bit worried that this may not be enough - at least not looking at 6 months past release. Talents that modify stats have a tendency to standardise instead of customise and our characters really won't change much just perform differently. This may be enough for the first half year (maybe shorter) or so until many players will have reached max level so eventually prestige classes (with more skills and limitations) will have to find their way into the game. It would be a pity if KnH went the same way like dungeon runners.
    Skills I have briefly written about - limitations could be 'preferred equipment'. A mage would only work at his best in cloth armor. Any other type of armor would result in a chance for a spell to fizzle. Something like that. We should end up with having to make decisions that have an impact on our characters and make them unique


  • I'm sure it'll be a combination of stat increases, new abilities, and ability enhancements.

  • Agree with Hirn. I hope they are looking at a system that creates differentiation and unique optimization. I worry that after a short amount of time everyone will figure out how to optimize for solo-play, which will likely commoditized stats for group play.

  • @Mbenu

    That's very hard to do. As long as there are meaningful choices that aren't simply more damage then I'll be happy. I would be fine with nothing but utility enhancements that changed playstyle without drastically changing numbers.

  • @Mbenu That's exactly what i am afraid of will happen. It happened in every single game I have played that uses talents. IMO the key to a successful competitive game is unique classes that depend on each other for successful dungeon runs. Is it hard to do? Yes. Would it make KnH different from most other games out there. Yes.
    Utility enhancements should be limited to the role the class has to begin with and not borrow from other classes

  • Designing classes to rely too heavily on eachother would harm the single player aspect and remove a lot of the skill that's present in the game right now. There's something to be said for being able to play above the recommended groupings to complete content design for multiple people. It should remain difficult to do, but shouldn't be made impossible.

    You can argue that every game with a talent system has a definitive top spec for whatever role, but those games also have standard group configurations that can't be overcome very easily. You aren't running a mythic dungeon in wow without the trifecta group. I don't want to see that become the case in this game.

    I also don't like the idea of just creating yet another talent system in a game that further enhances a classes role, usually along the same genre stereotypes that have been done to death. If I say Rogue, you say stealth, so it's really unimaginative to me to buff stealth for a rogue.

    Poe has proven that you can create and balance an entire ability and talent system that is accessible to every class, but also creates a multitude of builds. There doesn't exist one super build that far surpasses everything else, and when one particular build starts to move that way they buff the tree in a different direction or introduce a few new abilities that shakes the entire game up.

    So if they create a standard talent system that increases your damage or makes you heal better or whatever, then that's great, but it's also very boring, and leads to top builds. If they created one singular talent system for all classes with real choices then it would create a lot of the diversity you typically see in arpgs but in a mmo type of setting such as k&h.

    My long 2c.

  • @Trup said in Character progression ideas:

    My long 2c.

    One talent tree all classes have access to would be a great idea, but it will require an immense amount of time to just barely balance it and even more to prevent it from making some classes unnecessary.

    Why is it so important that players can solo everything. You should be able to solo the highest dungeons at normal difficulty, have a really hard time at advanced difficulty need at least 2 companions for hard a balanced 5-6 man party for nightmare and a balanced full party to have a shot at insane. Why else would you need groups except for just doing power runs? K&H even has 8 man regular groups, the biggest groups I have come across in the MMORPGs I have played and the game should be balanced to allow to solo?

    What I think is more important to balance for is casual vs power players so both can have a good time.

    One of the issues I think currently is that the starter classes are named after specific roles instead of being more general. str- based fighter, dex-based fighter, int-based caster, wis-based caster, aso would be enough for the first 50 levels and then you'd specialize through talents to be a 'rogue, chapmion, barbarian, cleric, healer, whatever.

  • I agree as well. I dont think anything above normal should be soloable. Maybe with right gear and grind then possibly do hard solo. After that tho it should all be groups. Afterall it is an mmo. And i feel classes should play there role and rewarded for playing there job right. Including wearing proper gear. I get in many parties were wizards run front. A wizard shouldnt be on the front lines. If they wore proper gear they wouldnt. And they would be powerhouses from behind the melee fighters.
    But furture creation above 50 would be awesome. Changes it up and can also add more replay value. Currently im capped and out of things to do...

  • I still don't understand the logic behind requiring groups for harder content. You're just arbitrarily assigning group requirements without changing anything else. I believe a player with a proper understanding of mechanics and a fair amount of skill should be able to do things it normally takes more to do, that's all.

    The game just isn't set up to require groups. What would you suggest they change to force grouping at higher difficulties? They can't just increase incoming damage because the survival window is already too short and healing is too cumbersome to perform well. You can take a full 8 man group that's undergeared into a dungeon and it isn't smart teamwork that gets them through. It's zerging everything with everyone running around rezing people.

  • @Trup said in Character progression ideas:

    I still don't understand the logic behind requiring groups for harder content. You're just arbitrarily assigning group requirements without changing anything else. I believe a player with a proper understanding of mechanics and a fair amount of skill should be able to do things it normally takes more to do, that's all.

    It isn't that complicated. If I'm playing basketball, a team will do far better than a solo player. Take almost any team sport and use the same analogy. Versus solo sports... golf for instance. The developers need to decide whether this is a team sport or for solo-play.

    If the classes have a purpose and are unique, a team of diverse, well-geared players should always be able to do more than a single class, well-geared even if they understand the mechanics. I understand the mechanics of gravity but that doesn't mean I can lift as much as if I had a team lifting with me (and yes, I do mean physically, not with additional equipment).

    The game just isn't set up to require groups. What would you suggest they change to force grouping at higher difficulties? They can't just increase incoming damage because the survival window is already too short and healing is too cumbersome to perform well. You can take a full 8 man group that's undergeared into a dungeon and it isn't smart teamwork that gets them through. It's zerging everything with everyone running around rezing people.

    I agree with you that the game currently isn't set up to require groups. I and others see that as a problem. I don't think you do. But if they keep it this way, they need to really enable PvP or come other gameplay or the shelf-life will be pretty short.. Currently, there is no campaign play. No quests. No uber bosses that require a team to fell.

    But if it is just a dungeon crawl that I can do solo, why do I need character progression? The only thing I can currently think of is to enable single players to conquer the higher dungeons solo. For example, if a team of 4 can do insane, maybe a single player needs 100 paragon levels to enable the same thing.

    I'm ok with that, I just think the IG needs to decide what type of game they are going to make and stop trying to please the masses.

  • @Mbenu Well said. my main worries are that currenyl K&H resembles dungeon runners very much. One hub to start randomly generated dungeons from. DR lived for 2.5 years whereof the last 1.5 were nothing but trying to please the top players that wanted to and could solo everything and constantly asked for more complaining how bad the game was and all the things that the devs should do to prevent them from leaving. During that process that more casual were completely forgotten about and in the end there was a very limited players base that had the game they had asked for but weren't happy with it. So they just kept complaining and asking for more.
    I am not saying you would be that kind of player @Trup but the type of game you are requesting will attract that crowd and it won't be nice.

  • Right, but there's a difference between being easier for a group and being impossible without one.

    I've been harping on combat design for a long time, and agree that the current model doesn't work. I was hoping the changes to itemization would remedy most of those issues, which it could, but that remains to be seen.

    Right now pve is more like an arpg and less like an mmo. I don't mind if they move it more towards an mmo, but that means doubling down on the trifecta and creating all of the systems needed to establish that type of gameplay. They can't remain as a first person arpg and also force groups without changing all of the classes and combat.

    So my entire point is that based on the game we have right now, forcing higher difficulties into requiring groups just won't work. There are plenty of ways to make it work, but that has far less to do with a talent system and everything to do with combat and class mechanics.

    There is absolutely no mandatory reason for a group right now, and I just don't see how they would make it so without vastly changing the game. It's very difficult to tune content to be beaten by solo players at low levels but require groups for high levels.

  • Also, basketball is a bad analogy because you're playing for points and not to remove the other players from the game. It's much more like dodgeball. They have 5 players with 5 balls and you are alone with 1 ball. It's difficult to win, but not impossible, but whenever you display more skill than the opposing team it removes one of them from the game and makes it easier.

    Forcing the game to always have 5 players on both sides means changing the rules which essentially changes the game.

    I'm not opposed to the game changing to require groups, I just don't see a way to do it that wouldn't take them months to do.

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